E:120 : Confidence in Conflict: Jessi Shares Her Superpower

Amy (03:05.219)
 So we've had some questions from our listeners about conflict and how to resolve it, how to stand up for yourself, how to be respectful about it. And so that's why we have Jesse here today because that's who I ask these questions to. So I thought I would share the wealth and let you hear from her. So I'll just jump in. So the first question is, let's say that you have

Amy (03:35.099)
Perhaps they are either, maybe they're just not very nice to you. Maybe they're actually like really mean and in a way though, that like they can't actually get in trouble for, but you're like, God, why do you have to be such an asshole?

Jessi (03:46.050)
So like passive aggressive, excluding you, and those kinds of things, sure. So I think, you know, we've all been in therapy, we've all had challenging relationships. You know, doing work on yourself is really like the beginning of all of this, right? So, you know, when I walk in a room,

Sarah Simone (03:50.191)
Yeah.

Amy (03:52.760)
Yeah!

Amy (03:56.980)
Exactly.

Jessi (04:16.650)
ready to engage with the people in the room. I feel like I have great ideas and I feel like I have something to say. I feel like maybe I can help. And so I really believe in myself and the work that I do. And so when I walk in the room, I'm generally in a good mood, happy to be there, ready to contribute. I think you have to sometimes do a lot of work on yourself to get to that point. And that doesn't mean every day I feel like that. Sometimes I have a bad day and then I call Amy and complain about it.

Jessi (04:46.310)
But I think that it starts with like feeling good about yourself. Because when you believe in yourself and you respect yourself, you're not going to put up with any of this nonsense from other people. If you walk in the room and feel like crap, that's work that has to be done in a different way. I can give you some pithy things to say and ways to address people's paths of aggressiveness, but it's not really ultimately going to change anything for you.

Jessi (05:16.610)
do the work. We all have to do the work. We all have to, you know, I know you guys use the language like your healing journey, which I think is great, and we're all on a healing journey. We've all had trauma. We've all had to overcome things and kind of where you are in that journey is going to influence how these interactions go more than just about anything else. So let's say you're doing the work and you are, you know, ready to walk into that room. I think it's good to

Amy (05:34.999)
Thank you.

Jessi (05:46.050)
before you walk into the room and say, I belong in this room as much as anybody else. If it's a really intimidating environment, if it's really something that you're nervous about, I like to think, I'm gonna walk in that room and I'm gonna own that room. There are things that you can kind of do to imagine, imagine the four corners of the room and you're just kind of like decide, like this is my territory. I think things like that can just get you a little bit of that boost of confidence when you need it.

Sarah Simone (06:01.338)
Yeah.

Jessi (06:16.110)
it, you're coming in strong. Now, somebody says something to you or, you know, does something that's really frustrating. I usually ignore it at first. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to just jump to conclusions and make the assumption that they don't like me or, you know, that they have something against me. Sometimes somebody's just having a bad day and I think the ability to overlook something,

Jessi (06:46.410)
usually serves us well because a lot of a lot of times our assumptions and inferences are not right. We think that person is being a jerk to us, but their, you know, favorite aunt just died this morning. That kind of thing has happened to me a lot and I've always felt really bad. And so I try not to make those assumptions. But if someone's behavior has over and over clearly been intended to cut you down,

Jessi (07:16.970)
minimize your contributions. I think that it's important to look for ways that you can call that out. So we're in the room and this person, has said like three negative things about your contributions. They don't like any of the ideas that you've said. I will say something like, you have a lot of opinions about my ideas today. I'm really interested in what alternative

Jessi (07:46.130)
you have to this problem and just like put that spotlight right on them. And that I think that has like never not worked because not only does not only does it call out their bad behavior, it also like makes them it makes them realize hopefully it makes them realize how negative they're being and it kind of shows other people in the room like yeah, what's up with that. So the attention then is on them.

Sarah Simone (07:58.096)
It makes me so happy.

Amy (08:00.240)
It's so good. It's so good.

Jessi (08:16.470)
There are other things you can do like a kinder thing to do if you're feeling really generous And you can either do this in a like I mean it way or in an ultra patronizing way like are you okay? and that can And you can do it like both ways and sometimes I genuinely mean it if someone that I really like in respect is acting like a jerk I will say that and mean it like time out What is up with you? Like do we need to take a moment?

Sarah Simone (08:19.751)
Yes. 

Amy (08:35.299)
I've heard that recently, yeah.

Jessi (08:46.050)
something going on. If it's someone that I have repeatedly had negative experiences with, I might do it in a little bit more of a patronizing tone. So that's something that you can do that I think really kind of just puts it on the table. Like you're saying it without saying it. Like, okay, you're being a jerk, explain yourself.

Amy (08:58.500)
Thank you. 

Sarah Simone (09:08.143)
I did it today. Yeah, I used that today at work. Actually, when I was explaining something to someone and that was, they weren't either

Jessi (09:10.990)
Hmm nice

Sarah Simone (09:18.290)
to me or just had no interest, it was there was a very obvious negativity from there and I said, are you okay? Just asked and then it was like they stopped doing the other thing that they were doing and started paying attention to what I was saying and yeah, it works. Yes, exactly. Right.

Amy (09:29.539)
Hahaha.

Jessi (09:32.730)
It's very useful in that your tone can really change the meaning of it. So it's a handy one. You only have to remember one thing. Are you okay? You can probably say that in five different ways to get a point across.

Sarah Simone (09:49.270)
So that's excellent for somebody who's generally being an asshole. And I love that you're saying like, let's do the work first and figure it out. What about different conversation styles? So there are just people who speak very differently than you. Or you know, so I generally have this and Amy makes fun of me for it, like my quote professional voice. Which is like very happy.

And I'm always wanting to convey that like, I appreciate your time and I am like, thankful that you're talking to me. Like I am always trying to convey that to people and that's not how everybody talks. And so when people don't convey that same way back to me, sometimes I'm like, oh my God, do they hate me? Like why are they not responding in the way that I'm talking? Why aren't they as happy as I am? And so when you have somebody who just communicates completely differently than you, and you want to kind of get that verification

So not necessarily that they're being, but you want to understand, are you upset with me? Or is this a difference in style of communication? How do you go about that?

Jessi (10:56.170)
Yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question. I think that, you know, it kind of brings me to a topic that I really love and lately I've been saying, it's like the answer to everything. So I'm a big fan of personality assessments. I love many different frameworks. It is the thing that I will probably go back for a PhD for. I have some,

Jessi (11:26.150)
exciting thoughts about what can be studied around this stuff. So I am a huge fan of the Enneagram. And for those who are new to the Enneagram, it is a personality assessment and then like a framework that introduces nine different types. And I will probably insist on coming back on this podcast to talk your ear off about the Enneagram because I really do think for people who are interested

Jessi (11:56.590)
about themselves and how to best interact with others. It's the best tool. But you can take any of the frameworks. So there's the disk profile, there's Strength Finder, there's Myers-Briggs. There are lots of different ones that you can engage with and the purpose of all of them is to help us understand that we are different from each other and it's not better or worse. So if you're the easiest one

Jessi (12:26.230)
understand is like an introvert, versus an extrovert, right? If you were young and not particularly self aware, you may be an extrovert, and you might think that introverts are just weird. Like you don't get it, like you love meeting new people, you want to talk to everybody, like, why wouldn't you love to walk into a party of strangers and just walk up to them and start talking to them. But obviously, you know, if you do a little bit of work on this stuff,

Jessi (12:56.170)
you can see that there's great value in introverts, just like there's great value in extroverts. And there's lots of different elements that you can be like A or B, so introvert or extrovert. You're more of a thinker, more of a feeler. Are you spontaneous? Are you a planner? And none of those things are like a right and wrong. They're just different. And it helps us to learn about these differences because then we stop making assumptions and we start giving people more of that benefit

Jessi (13:26.350)
that I was talking about earlier. So Sarah, you used an example of like, you know, I'm kind of coming to this conversation with a particular energy and this person that I'm talking to is not matching my energy. In most of the time, most people do at least to a degree match the person they're talking to's energy. But some people are not that way. And they are just the way that they are and are not

Jessi (13:56.750)
reacting to anything that you're doing or reacting to who you are, they may or may not like you. And so that goes back again to kind of that doing the work and being like, I'm going to be just fine standing here and experiencing this awkward moment. And actually it's kind of funny that this that I'm like smiling like the Joker and being kind of loud and this person is just staring at me with this flat A-fact and like, you know, no tonality.

Jessi (14:26.270)
to their voice. I mean, that's how I try to think of those situations. Like, this is going to be a hilarious story to tell later. That is kind of my coping mechanism for awkwardness. But I think that there's such a great and simple mantra, which is, it's not about you. Most of the time it isn't. And even, you know, with those situations of where you have people who can be kind of catty or kind of bitchy.

Amy (14:49.444)
Mm-hmm.

Jessi (14:56.270)
so much more about them than it says anything about you. And so when I'm experiencing that, I have kind of trained myself to the point of just like immediately recognizing it, like, whoa, what is wrong with this person? Are they having a terrible day? Are they always like this? I don't like own it. Like I don't say, I must have done something wrong. This is my fault. They don't like me. I have days where that happens, but it's pretty rare

Jessi (15:26.250)
this is the work that I have done. And so I think it's not making assumptions, not making inferences. When we, when we speculate, we're usually wrong. I don't know if you've noticed that, but when I speculate, I'm usually wrong. And I used to spend a lot of time speculating. And what a waste of time. So I try not to do that.

Sarah Simone (15:52.245)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's how I've gotten to this point is because of all that speculation

did early on in life where I was like, this person doesn't like me and whatever. And then when I find out, you know, oh, either that's just their personality, that's how they are, or something like you said, something has happened in their life that's causing them to, you know, behave this way in this time. And then I was like, okay, I need to stop making those assumptions right off the bat and just start, you know, realizing we're all different.

Amy (15:58.760)
I think that...

Jessi (16:20.550)
And I think there's a fine line between not making assumptions, but also trusting your gut, right? Because it's both and it sounds a little contradictory. Like if my gut tells me like, this person really does not like me. And I've felt it over and over. I don't want to make an assumption about why that is, but I do trust that like something is up.

Amy (16:49.804)
Mm.

Jessi (16:50.470)
ignore it because I genuinely don't care. Like I can get through the interactions with this person and if they want to be weird, that's fine. But if I feel that it's a relationship that's essential to me working well, if I know it's gonna be a barrier, I will choose to have a conversation with that person. And I think that kind of moves to a topic that's really important, which is, what do you do when something's up?

Jessi (17:20.550)
Like what do you do when there's that vibe? And I want to talk about it. So I am really direct. I say exactly what I want. I say exactly what I think. I am too direct for some people. Sometimes I care about that because the impact that I'm making isn't what I want it to be. But sometimes I don't care. Just because someone is uncomfortable with my directness does not necessarily mean it's a problem for me.

Jessi (17:51.050)
There are times when I want to soften that. There are times when I want to adjust that because it's important to build a relationship with this person and I can tell that's not, that approach is not going to work. But what I really don't like about a lot of office culture is when something happens that's uncomfortable or that you don't like or you don't like a person or they said something, you know, offensive, what do people usually do?

Amy (18:18.199)
Tattle

Jessi (18:20.470)
Tattle is one of the very biggest ones. Tattle or gossip, they either tattle or they gossip. And I don't, I think we're all tempted to do that at different times. And, you know, there is a time to go to your supervisor. There is a time to, you know, go to the bathroom with your work friend and, you know, vent about it for two minutes. But mostly, should we not just have a conversation? I can have a conversation.

Sarah Simone (18:25.828)
Yeah, got that.

Amy (18:29.304)
Yeah.

Jessi (18:50.450)
I will not get upset. I will not scream and yell. I will not, I will not allow it to escalate. So I know I'm okay to have it. I don't know if other people are afraid that it will escalate. I think people are not raised to engage in healthy conflict. You know, with my 13 year old daughter, I, since she could talk, I've insisted that we have it out.

Jessi (19:20.650)
She's 13 now, so you can imagine we have it out a whole bunch. And I'm teaching her. I'm training her. This is how you do it. You don't just storm off to your room and slam the door and don't talk for three days and then act like nothing happened. You don't just scream and yell for five minutes and then act like nothing happened. We do not do that. We talk about it. Sometimes we need a moment. In our family, we can say, I need a minute. I got to cool down and that is always acceptable.

Jessi (19:50.450)
We will come back and talk about it. And it's hard. It's exhausting. It's always at the most inconvenient time. It's like I'm draining the pasta for dinner and here it comes. And I'm like, I am literally going to stand here for 30 minutes now. And I know that's what it's going to take. But I'm doing that so that in 20 years, when she walks into an office, when she has to lead her team to do something, she knows how to do it. It's not this crazy, weird, scary, unknown.

Sarah Simone (19:59.010)
Of course.

Jessi (20:20.650)
thing because I am right now sitting at tables with adults that think a a disagreement is a scary unknown thing and that is a tragedy. People you know it's they people say it's not polite to talk about politics or religion and you know in this climate it is it is very hard to engage in that if you don't 100% agree with someone but it's part of the reason why we're in this situation in the first place because we have not been raised to

Jessi (20:50.790)
trained to encourage to have conversations with people who disagree with us. And so our country is very divided into two camps of people, and we only spend time with people we agree with because it's getting harder and harder to tolerate relationships with people we disagree with. And I think we would never have gotten this far politically if at home and in our social circles, if we engaged in these healthy debates,

Jessi (21:21.554)
without it having to be friendship ending or relationship ending.

Jessi (21:28.091)
counts.

Amy (21:31.419)
Okay, I have a question. So when you do this, when you say, so let's talk, like what's going on? Do we have, is there something going on? And they're like, no, nothing. And clearly that's not true. What do you do? I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna say,

Sarah Simone (21:39.297)
Yeah.

Jessi (21:42.290)
Yep. So that happens all, yeah, that happens all the time. And one thing that I think is important to understand is that some people will never come around. Some people will never engage with you. Some people never, ever, ever will do it. But you will still know that you made a good effort. And what you want to come out of the conversation with us some agreements. And they're going to agree to it. They're probably not really going to do it.

Jessi (22:12.290)
that they agreed to it. So that's something that I have found to be helpful. Because this is not usually something that you can snap your fingers and fix unless you have two highly emotionally intelligent people having a conversation. It's like, you know, it's almost like soulmates. Like, like you, you, you find someone you're like, wait, you can have a hard conversation and we can resolve it and then we'll be like friends afterwards. It really is really exciting.

Jessi (22:42.490)
when you find someone like that because it's not typical. Most of the time, you know, if you are someone who is serious about emotional intelligence, you are serious about conflict resolution, you can see other people like that really easily and you can also see who is not that way. But let's say you're talking to someone who's not that way and you can tell they're very uncomfortable, they don't want to have this conversation. So for me, because I am so direct, I know that I have to turn that dial way down.

Jessi (23:12.290)
I have to try to be a lot softer. There are some actual physical things that you can do that help. You don't want to be standing over someone trying to have this conversation. So if they're sitting down, you want to sit down too. You want to give them enough space. Some people need a lot of space and feel really crowded if you're sitting close to them. You don't want to make like constant direct eye contact with them. Some people find that intimidating. Just being aware of some things like that.

Jessi (23:42.650)
I think starting out like this is always really, really good. Can I ask you a question? When you do that, it lowers the person's defenses because they are giving you permission. And I've never had someone say no. So people are far too curious about what I'm going to say to say no, but they're also giving me permission. And so when they give me that permission, whether they intended to or not,

Jessi (24:12.830)
So now I have permission and I'm only asking a question. I'm not going to say like you're an idiot and I don't want to ever talk to you again. I'm just going to ask them, you know, I sense that there is some tension between us and I wanted to know if you agree. Do you feel that too? So it's very neutral. I'm not blaming them. As soon as you start blaming someone, it's over. It's over. I work very hard.

Jessi (24:43.170)
people. Now there may be a point in a conversation like this where I request that they take some responsibility and if the conversation goes well, usually they will. I also have to be very quick to take responsibility for the things that I have done that maybe aren't the greatest because even though I'm pretty good at this stuff, I occasionally will roll my eyes. I occasionally will say something that's not the nicest.

Jessi (25:12.510)
Um, and I can take responsibility for those things pretty easily. Like it doesn't feel like it to me. Like I don't know why people, some people feel like it costs them greatly to admit fault or apologize. It doesn't cost me anything. I don't feel, um, that it's difficult to part ways with my pride or something. Like I just have decided that that is not going to be a difficult thing for me. I will

Jessi (25:42.730)
If I was wrong, I will be the first to say it. And that is both a kindness as well as a power move. So you are both being kind as well as you are confident enough to admit when you're wrong. So I think setting the stage physically so they're as comfortable as possible, start with a question. Ask if they agree with the tension. Okay. So let's say they're stonewalling you.

Jessi (26:12.290)
going to give. They're not, even if you admit, hey, listen, you know, I feel like I might be partly responsible for this. I said this one day and it seemed like maybe it bothered you and I want to apologize for that. And they'll say like, yeah, okay, that bothered me. But they're not like, they're not really giving you like they're not really being vulnerable. And that's really what it is. I'm sensing if they're going to be vulnerable with me, I'm already going to be, I'm going to set the example. I'm going to be vulnerable. They

Jessi (26:42.270)
not. If they do, it's usually going to go really well. If they don't, okay, and I had this happen not long ago with someone. And I could tell that they weren't really going to get into it with me. They did not really want to talk about it. So what I asked them was, how about this? How about if, in the future, you know, if there's something that I say, or that I do,

that bothers you, would you be willing to agree to come and have a conversation with me about it? That's all I'm asking because I think, because I think that we can probably work it out. You're smart, I'm smart, we both care about working here. Why wouldn't we want to work it out? So I'm telling you that if you come to me, I will give you my time, I will give you my attention so we can work it out. And nobody is not gonna agree to that. Will they actually do it? Not always.

Sarah Simone (27:23.646)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (27:25.919)
That's good. That's really good.

Jessi (27:42.690)
But it is a good thing to ask someone to agree to. You're making a request that they agree to do that. So now when they don't do that and when they tattle or gossip, at least you know that you gave them an alternative and they are very intentionally choosing not to speak with you. And to me, that is all on them. I have done everything I can and if they want to be mad, I really don't care because I have made myself available.

I have done the things that I know how to do.

Sarah Simone (28:19.203)
You bring up such a great point to talking about apologizing and it being a power move. I thousand percent agree with that. I realized in like high school.

I think it was when I was having an argument with a friend and they owned up and apologized for something they did and I instantly my point of view of that person completely switched and I grew this whole new level of respect and I was like this is a good person that can sit here and own up and say they are sorry for what they have you know done or how I'm feeling about something and I decided at that point that that's what I was going to do going forward as well and

that, you know, I find that my relationships are a lot stronger. I apologize to my children so that my children know that it is okay and it is an acceptable thing and an encouraged thing to do to apologize for your mistakes and to own it when you have done something that you know you shouldn't have or that you feel sorry for or that, you know, if you know that you have hurt someone

Jessi (29:18.913)
heavily.

Sarah Simone (29:28.770)
if it's something that you didn't intend to do, but still that person has feelings towards that action, you need to apologize for, you know, unintentionally, whether it's unintentional or not. And I think that's a big part of it too, where it's like, well, I didn't mean to, because that was, you know, I've had conversations with people too. 

Amy (29:49.660)
And that's where the gaslighting comes in. And they're like, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. What?

Jessi (29:51.090)
So that's the difference between, and this is a good thing to say to someone that does that. It works, it's a little hard for kids. I have explained this to my daughter many times and I think that she gets it. I've probably started explaining this to her when she was too little to understand what on earth I was talking about, but it's the difference between intent versus impact. So when you put that on the table, here's what you're doing. So okay.

Amy (30:21.103)
Yeah.

Jessi (30:21.110)
like why didn't you hurt your feelings? And you say, okay, listen, there's a big difference between intent and impact. I can see that your intention was not to do that, but would you be willing to consider taking some responsibility for the impact what you said had on me? Because the way it made me feel is disrespected. It made me feel embarrassed. It made me feel confused. And I want you to care enough about this relationship

Amy (30:44.420)
Good.

Jessi (30:51.250)
to at least consider next time maybe you could say that a little bit differently.

Sarah Simone (30:59.410)
That's like a boom mic drop.

Jessi (30:59.760)
boom.

Amy (31:04.699)
That is really good. I know that your time is limited. So I really have a lot, but I will get to the next thing that I feel like other people are wanting to know. And that's when it's your superior, when it's your boss. So when it's someone who has that sort of power over you, is it different? I guess it probably is. And how you manage that situation if they are either being disrespectful

Jessi (31:19.550)
Mm-hmm. Yep

Amy (31:34.699)
maybe passive aggressive or not giving you really the credit that the credits do or sliding you in some way or whatever it is. How do you handle that? Because that's just a little bit of a different dynamic than a co-worker. So, I'm going to go ahead and do that.

Jessi (31:38.954)
Mm-hmm

Jessi (31:43.810)
It is. It is. And so, you know, my personality type, I'm kind of in this mode anyway, which is, I only care what you think. If I love you, respect you or you have power over me. That's it. Anybody else I really like I could not muster up one little You know what to give

Sarah Simone (32:13.579)
What number are you? You're an eight? Okay. 

Jessi (32:13.850)
eight on the Enneagram. Yeah, I'm such an eight. I'm seven wing, which makes me seem friendlier than maybe I really am. We can talk about that in our upcoming Enneagram episode. But yes, it is, it is all the stakes are higher for me in any of those three categories. If you have power over me, if I love you, I respect you. So with a boss, I, have had some bosses with some very strong personalities. I have had bosses who are demanding. I have had bosses who are tough to please. And I think that I am actually very good at working for someone who's sort of a hard ass because I know what it feels like because I probably would be more

that way if it didn't hurt people's feeling so much. And so I get why they are demanding and I get why they are, but I can kind of help to be a little bit of a translator. One time at a job that I had, let's pretend that my boss's name was Bill. Someone came up to me and he had started working for the organization a couple months before, and he came up to me and he goes, I hear you speak Bill.  meaning like I could translate what something meant. And it was so funny, like the comment itself was so funny, but what was even funnier was he said, well, this is what he said. And he told me these like couple sentences that I think he may have even read an email to me. And it was utter nonsense. But I knew exactly what it meant. So I, I think that I have learned how to kind of take a lot of like getting a little bit beat up.

Sarah Simone (33:50.804)
That's great.

Sarah Simone (33:58.750)
Thank you.

Jessi (34:13.830)
But the trade-off is someone like me can take that. And when the moment comes to stand up to that person, because it's important, because this is not right, like I can do it. But I'm not going to do it every day. And so I think with a boss, it's partly about choosing your battles. I think that you have to look for the good. Every boss I've had, I've liked better after I left. And part of the reason is because it's

of like how, you know, we look at George W. Bush now like, oh, isn't he so cute? Right? Yeah, right. Exactly. And like, you know, I was like marching in Seattle about the war in Iraq. So there, you know, time is a, is a friend in that way. But you know, you look back and you can see what they taught you and what you learned from them. And I guess I would say, you know, look for the good, like do the work to look for

Sarah Simone (34:50.475)
Yeah.

Amy (34:52.539)
Isn't he sweet? Look, he paints!

Amy (35:01.956)
Same!

Jessi (35:13.850)
good and try to see, you know, this person is really tough about some of these things. But here's what I do have. Either I have their respect, you know, at least they're flexible with me, you know, whatever the things are that make you appreciate them at all, remember to be appreciative of those. But I definitely think that there are occasions where you ask to have a conversation. And I would say that, you know, if they're taking your ideas, if they're talking over you, if they're disrespecting you, you know, whatever it might be, I think you bring it up when you're not mad. You like wait till your next supervision. It's like a scheduled time already, you know, you're not firing off email, I need to speak with you immediately, you know, don't do anything like that. Wait until your next meeting. And then, you know, you just say to this person, like, Hey, I've noticed that there have been like a couple of specific occasions where I've noticed that, you know, you talk over me.

Jessi (36:13.750)
expertise because I'm not going to be yapping for nothing. So if I'm talking, I've thought about it and I'm probably really well versed in the topic. So I'd really love a chance to contribute in these meetings. And I just wanted to, you know, make you aware of the observation and, you know, give you a chance to respond. And then they're almost for sure going to be like, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm so sorry. Um, and, and probably feel a little bit like they should have realized

themselves. But I think you do it kindly. I think you, you know, maybe with a boss have like a tiny bit of an apologetic, you know, tone. Like I hate to have to point this out, but I'm going to.

Sarah Simone (37:04.564)
I like one of the words you used in that was a couple of specific incidences. And I think when you're speaking with people, especially those in power above you,

Amy (37:06.519)
That's good.

Sarah Simone (37:12.350)
you are to be able to give specifics. So instead of saying something like, you make me feel stupid. Right. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Jesse, these are amazing tips. We are so thankful for you.

Jessi (37:13.434)
Yeah.

Jessi (37:17.730)
Yeah, that won't get you anywhere because it's not actionable. Like, I think that's what it is, is like, make it easy for people to be better. You know, here is what you can do about this. Like, that time when you talked to me in that meeting, I would have loved to have finished my thought.

Sarah Simone (37:42.450)
having all of this knowledge. Girl, you got it.

Jessi (37:44.490)
I've had to fight for it. This has come from decades of conflict and criticism. But I have learned.

Amy (37:55.099)
Decades and decades and decades and you know it... Yeah, I think that...

Amy (38:04.159)
I look up to you so much with that, but I also have to say, and I can't end this conversation without saying it.

Jessi (38:30.990)
Yep. It has been so great to spend a little bit of time with the two of you. I love your podcast and I'll come back anytime.

Amy (39:06.799)
There is hope for those of you out there who hate conflict because Jesse and I've been friends for 25 ish years and She has tried this with me even back in day one and I was like nothing's wrong Meanwhile, I was like I fucking hate you like I'm so mad at you And so we've come to this place now where like we can have this amazing Discussion if there is something wrong I guess what I'm telling everyone is there's a possibility for growth even for those people

Jessi (39:19.450)
Thank you. Thank you.

Amy (39:36.519)
people who are like, Hey, this is terrifying. Nothing's wrong. I'm fine. Everything's fine. And then you're dying inside. And so just keep working on yourselves. I think that though it goes both ways, I think that, you know, everybody's working on themselves. And those are the people that you want to spend your time with.

Jessi (39:49.591)
So true.

Sarah Simone (39:53.070)
Jesse, thank you so much for joining us. We will talk to you again very soon. So stay tuned, everybody, for our conversation around the Enneagram and some other personality test discussions.