E 121: Life After Divorce: A Conversation with Dr. Katie

Sarah Simone (00:00.27)
mean anything but you know. Sounds like a plan. What are we what are we like is there

Amy (00:07.117)
and intro us in case we never get to.

Sarah Simone (00:16.971)
Are we just talking about... Okay, life after force. Okay.

Katie (00:17.516)
Right. That's what I thought.

Amy (00:18.177)
Isn't this life after divorce or?

Amy (00:23.497)
Yeah, I, I, yeah. You're the expert, it's not us there. I got nothing. I mean, I was anyways, okay.

Katie (00:27.334)
I am a multi-faceted expert.

Sarah Simone (00:27.997)
You're always the expert. We're never the expert. Mm-hmm.

Katie (00:33.156)
Yeah.

Amy (00:33.277)
I mean, my parents were divorced, so that kind of helps as a child, right? I always anyways, I'll tell it on there. OK, here we go. Making sure the on's not coming, which is actually appropriate. OK, welcome back, everyone, to another episode of The Unqualified Therapist. Today we have Dr. Katie. She is back with us. We missed her so much and we figured out a way to make these schedules work

Katie (00:49.814)
you

Katie (00:59.714)
Yeah.

Amy (01:03.297)
We need her expertise. Hi, Katie.

Katie (01:04.137)
Oh, hello. I am happy to be back talking about another one of my favorite topics.

Sarah Simone (01:07.843)
We're so. No. Thank you so much for coming on to help us talk through life after divorce.

Sarah Simone (01:18.29)
It is a topic that is extremely important to at least half of the country here in the United States. Also, I feel like in our age group, as we're all in our 40s, that this is kind of the time where things start to happen within relationships. You know, in this time of our lives, we start to discover ourselves a little bit more and maybe decide or realize that we are not in the right space in terms of our relationships. And so I think this is an excellent time.

Katie (01:23.562)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Simone (01:48.11)
of life to be discussing this topic. So thank you so much for coming on.

Katie (01:51.614)
Oh yeah, no problem. I will say, sounds weird to say that divorce is a topic near and dear to my heart, but it really is. I'm divorced, I am remarried. I've treated a lot of people going through divorce, post divorce, and my father is a family lawyer. So divorces have positively impacted my life, in some ways, certainly kept my father employed.

Sarah Simone (02:03.05)
and then we had a lot of people going to the board, and my father and family lawyer, so unfortunately, have positively impacted my life. You know, in such a way that I found myself with my brother and my brother's work, and I think a lot of people before, this kind of a taboo topic,

Katie (02:21.694)
him and is now a family court judge. So like, I think for a lot of people divorce was kind of a taboo topic. I think especially when we were growing up, you know, when friends parents would be getting divorced, it was like shameful and you know, people would have a hard time talking about it. And now, you know, as you said, it's what like half of marriages. And it was interesting to me,

Sarah Simone (02:33.29)
when my friends and I would be getting divorced, it was like shameful. And we were having a hard time talking about it. And then all of a sudden, as I said, this is what like, after the prayer is finished, and it was interesting because I always heard about divorce because it was what my dad did for a living. So it's hard to talk about this kind of scary word even though I knew it was something I was doing

Katie (02:51.854)
about divorce because it was what my dad did for a living. So it wasn't this kind of scary word, even though I knew it was something I didn't ever want to have to do and then did it. But it's such an issue that I don't know that we talk about enough, so I'm glad we are. Go ahead.

Sarah Simone (03:03.05)
I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. I'm just gonna say, I really don't know if I'm gonna be

Amy (03:10.761)
But it.

Amy (03:14.797)
I was just gonna say, I feel like where we grew up and maybe this was everyone in that timeframe, there just wasn't anyone getting divorced. And so it was very, very rare. So when it happened, it was like, oh, where now I'm just like, oh, okay, it's Tuesday. Like.

Katie (03:18.295)
No, it was pretty rare.

Katie (03:27.334)
Yeah, yeah, and then I think too, you know, it's always framed in this super negative way that like this is the worst thing that could happen in a marriage, in someone's life. And is it a great thing? Not always. Is it almost always difficult? I think so. But it can also be a really big opportunity

Sarah Simone (03:33.65)
It's always coming in a super negative way. That like, this is the worst thing that could happen in a marriage, in someone's life. And is it a great thing? Not always. Is it almost always difficult? I think so. But it gives you a really big opportunity to design your life

Katie (03:57.314)
to design your life, and if there are kids, your children's lives, in a different way that is more positive.

Amy (04:10.319)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (04:11.655)
Sorry, I was just clearing my throat.

Amy (04:14.097)
I was just waiting on you. Okay.

Katie (04:14.265)
Hahahaha

Amy (04:18.057)
So one of the things that I think might be still different for people is the relationships afterwards, the reason for divorce. I mean, there is this, if it's amicable, like that's kind of good in a way because you can still be friends, still raise your kids if you have it. But then there's these, well, most of the ones that I know of are not. They're like very volatile and very much like, I don't know, one person is really unhealthy, it seems.

Katie (04:23.014)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Simone (04:33.05)
I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. Yeah, and that, I think you should also I think that, I think you should also say that I also choose to work in and I think that some of the people I've talked about I think that some of the people I've talked about

Katie (04:43.754)
Yeah, and that, I think I should also say that I also treat attorneys who work in family law. And I think that something that people don't think about is the effect on them of seeing exactly what you're talking about, Amy, all of this rancor and seeing people fighting, fighting, fighting, and expecting an attorney, someone else in their lives,

Sarah Simone (05:02.25)
And all of this writing, and so you keep on fighting, fighting, fighting. And it stops those people from having to turn to you because they're not seeing their lives that much. So like, get them some kind of answer, will they get what they want? And what they want is to push them. Instead of saying, well, I'm too focused on this. And there are a lot of different ways that this works.

Katie (05:13.975)
where they get what they want when what they want is to punish somebody.

Katie (05:20.514)
Instead of saying, you know what, this is how we have to move forward. And there are a lot of different ways divorce can happen. And I think you don't have to be friends, but if you can just be respectful and kind to each other, that makes it better for everybody.

Sarah Simone (05:32.25)
But, you know, it's like, if you think of it as like, all of the 10 kinds to each other, that's what it's about. But, after that, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know,

Amy (05:44.317)
Do you have patients who are divorced with children and then those who are divorced without children and what's the difference there?

Katie (05:49.674)
Oh my gosh, so this kind of have people everywhere on the spectrum and there was an interesting period, oh gosh, how long ago? Maybe almost 10 years ago where I was treating a few women whose children were grown, so they're left at home with their husbands. And honestly, maybe not their exact words, but kind of like, what the fuck? It's just us again.

Sarah Simone (05:52.35)
I've heard about people, as I was there, I've got their photos. There's been an interesting period, I think about a long, long ago, maybe almost 10 years ago, where I was treating women who's children were grown, so there's lots of different ones that they're coming in. And honestly, maybe not their best work, but kind of like, what the fuck? It's just that again. This is not what I find at all.

Katie (06:18.734)
this is not what I signed up for. And this is not what I signed up for is something that's kind of consistent. Whether it's that situation, whether it's parents of young children or even older where there has to be a lot of co-parenting, it's even if oftentimes things have been discussed prior to having children, it kind of never shakes out the way people plan. And if you aren't able to adjust

Sarah Simone (06:21.35)
What I find at work is something that's kind of consistent. Whether it's that situation, whether it's a relationship of young children or even older, when there has to be a lot of culture, it's even if, often times, you have a relationship that you're tired of having. It kind of never takes out the way people can, and that you aren't able to adjust as you go or on your relationship.

Katie (06:48.614)
Relationship with each other as well as your relationship with the children. It can be really really difficult I will say it seems Easiest and I'm actually kind of laughing as I say this For people who don't have children and I'm laughing because I remember when I got divorced and I didn't have children so many people the first things out of their mouths would be what least you don't have kids and At the time I felt like thank you for shaking your head

Amy (07:17.741)
Yeah.

Katie (07:18.934)
Sarah. I felt like that was so disrespectful and so demeaning and belittling of my experience.

Sarah Simone (07:22.83)
It is. Yeah, and you're like, like that's not comforting at all.

Amy (07:30.217)
It's similar to like something like when someone dies and they're like, well, at least they're at peace now or something like that, or they're not suffering.

Katie (07:32.994)
Yeah, yeah, because that's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think people just don't know what to say. And as we have said before, if you don't know what to say, just say, I don't know what to say. And I want to be here for you. How can I do that? Yeah, but it's just wild, I think too, maybe because of what we talked about with at least growing up divorce being kind of taboo and shameful. And now that it's more common and

Sarah Simone (07:51.49)
why are you doing this to me? Because of what we talked about that we saw about the first thing you said, Abul, and she's wrong. And now that it's more common, you don't talk about it anymore, they can actually open up to you about things they want. Because that is something that I could only experience in, that comes up in the classroom. And what I was looking for was that you actually don't want to do it. It's totally fine. You just have to prepare. And someone comes up to you and says, hey, you can do whatever you want. And you can handle that the way you want.

Katie (08:02.974)
ask you all kinds of questions about your divorce, because that is something that I certainly experience and that comes up in session. And what I will work on with people is have just a one-liner. It's totally fine to just have something prepared when someone says, well, what happened? And you can handle that however you want. Like, if you want to tell the truth, and usually it's sex and money, go ahead, tell them. But it's really absolutely nobody's business. You can be silly about it. Like, I don't know.

Sarah Simone (08:21.97)
Like, if you want to sell the church and use it to collect the money, well, I'd help you. But it's really absolutely useless. I don't know why people think they are entitled to your information. I know there's something I have said to people, the one I've gotten really annoyed with, I haven't talked to them in a while,

Amy (08:31.86)
Yeah.

Katie (08:33.914)
why people think they are entitled to your information. I know that's something I have said to people when I've gotten really annoyed and this hasn't happened in a while because I've been divorced for, I don't know, like 10 years, longer. Longer. I'm not sure. But yeah.

Amy (08:57.867)
Time flies.

Katie (08:58.994)
to someone, you know, when's the last time someone just expected you to talk about your most shameful, difficult experience?

Katie (09:11.114)
It's ballsy, but every once in a while I can pull it out.

Sarah Simone (09:11.17)
It reminds me. Yeah, yeah, you can definitely say it. It reminds me of the wedding singer when somebody talks to Robbie in the beginning about his parents who, you know, or wait, no, he gets left at the altar before he gets married. And you know, somebody comments on it and says, Oh, that must have hurt real bad. And he's like, Yeah, my parents died when I was 10. You want to talk about that too?

Katie (09:20.214)
I could see that.

Katie (09:36.061)
Yeah!

Katie (09:39.456)
Yep.

Sarah Simone (09:40.45)
And the guy says, why would I want to talk about that? And he's like, exactly. So it's just these people who just brazenly ask you these questions, it's totally fine to clap back and say something to get them to realize how inappropriate it is to ask about those types of things.

Katie (09:44.843)
Yep.

Katie (09:53.456)
Yeah.

Katie (09:58.034)
Absolutely. And I think the B word, again, something we've talked about probably almost every episode that we've done together is boundaries. Feel free to have them. Feel free to enforce them with anything, but especially with this, and I think especially when children are involved.

Amy (10:10.06)
Yeah.

Amy (10:21.157)
So I'm gonna flip the script here because there's other people. What about, how do you handle the ones who never stop talking about?

Katie (10:30.074)
meaning people who are getting divorced or who are divorced and just want to tell you about it all the time.

Sarah Simone (10:35.807)
Yes.

Katie (10:37.214)
Wait.

Amy (10:38.857)
all the time and some people might be friends with both sides, some people might have a trigger of their own, some people might just, you wanna be there for people, but what is the most appropriate way and how do you handle that?

Katie (10:40.941)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (10:53.014)
Well, you're right. We are we're actually not even flipping things that much, right? Because we're staying with boundaries as Yeah, exactly as a friend as you know a relative whatever You get to have boundaries too. You don't have to take in everything that someone wants to give to you I mean, I know we've also talked about being empaths and that kind of stuff I think it is totally fine to say something along the lines of listen you talk about this a lot So I think it must be really important to you

Sarah Simone (10:53.599)
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Amy (11:01.797)
That's what made me think of it.

Sarah Simone (11:09.75)
I think every day, if someone knows the history, I would make a link, I would talk about it, and I would talk about it. I think it's probably time to remember one thing that you talk about, but I think that this is a good time to do it. But I'm not a very good person, so I think it's a good time to talk about it. That's a good for a lot of things.

Katie (11:22.914)
But I'm not in a place where I can be the person you talk to about this.

Katie (11:31.494)
Yeah, don't give them my number, but another therapist or something.

Amy (11:33.239)
good.

Amy (11:37.841)
You're fully booked. Your calendar is booked.

Sarah Simone (11:39.111)
Yes. We've seen it. So to help out our friends, to help out those who are going through divorce and who might find themselves in a place of sometimes romanticizing about the past and making, maybe thinking that this was a mistake or when they've made the right choice and they're in a good space, but they're still in that space of, like I said, romanticizing about it.

Katie (11:40.435)
You

Katie (11:43.036)
Bye!

Katie (11:54.334)
Ugh.

Amy (11:57.525)
Oh yeah.

Katie (12:01.278)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (12:05.654)
Yeah, that's a great question. And I always think it's important to remember that the right choice doesn't always feel good, especially once we've made the decision and then we're implementing steps. And I like to think of it as totally normal to romanticize, to maybe even have some regrets, to look back because you're grieving. There is this life

Sarah Simone (12:06.53)
How do we help them?

Katie (12:35.614)
you were going to have with this person. So allow yourself to feel it, but watch how your thoughts about it and the way you talk about it might be promoting those feelings and encouraging them.

Sarah Simone (12:36.45)
So how do you feel about this? So how do you feel about this? So how do you feel about this? But we watched how we watched how we watched how everybody talked about it we watched how everybody talked about it and might be promoting those films and encouraging them encouraging them

Katie (12:58.114)
versus just saying, you know what, this is normal. You know, there was a time when I was so hopeful about my future with this person that I said yes to marrying them.

Sarah Simone (13:03.77)
When I was so hopeful about my future with the community, I said, yes, I want to marry them.

Katie (13:15.714)
And now I'm saying yes to myself.

Sarah Simone (13:17.174)
Thanks for watching!

Katie (13:20.134)
by moving forward with them. You know, it might be without them. It might be with them in a different role, whatever it is.

Katie (13:30.134)
But I think we need to acknowledge the past without getting stuck in it by saying, you know, this is normal, but now I need to take time to focus on what I want moving forward. And like getting active about it, designing it.

Sarah Simone (13:46.825)
What do you mean by that?

Katie (13:48.514)
So even though, I mean, divorce is a great reminder that things don't work out the way we want them to a lot of the time, I think we can really think about, okay, what are things in this, I find this more with women probably just because I treat more women. What are things that felt like me that I lost in this relationship?

Sarah Simone (13:52.95)
I think it's important, there's a great reminder that things don't work out the way we want them. A lot of the time, we can really think about, okay, what are things in this world that I find the most women's style is just because I keep my women? What are things that felt like me that I want in a relationship? What are the parts of myself that didn't get attended to

Katie (14:19.494)
that didn't get attended to in a way that felt healthy and nourishing and start there. How can I reconnect with myself as I move forward? What do I want things to look like? And it can be as specific as scheduling. I'm gonna do this on this day. It can be, you know, adding in more self-care.

Sarah Simone (14:23.25)
in a way that felt healthy and nourishing. And start there. How can I do to them this time to tell? As I move forward. What are the things to look at? And it can be as specific as scheduling. I'm gonna do this on this day. It can be adding in more healthcare. Just really thinking about

Katie (14:48.714)
really thinking about what is the life I want to have, what are the steps I can take to logically get myself closer. I may not be able to actively make it all happen, but if I think for most of us if we feel like we are doing something

Sarah Simone (14:53.51)
I want to ask, what are the steps that I can take to possibly get this done quickly? I may not be able to access the video without the video, but if I can, I think it's a nice idea. I feel like we are doing something.

Katie (15:10.374)
to move ourselves forward, even if it's a small step. We just feel so much better. We feel more grounded, and it's easier to move through life in that way.

Amy (15:12.302)
Yeah.

Amy (15:24.197)
That's a really good point on all fronts. What is your advice for those who have children? How do you talk to your patients that way? It could be a good situation, right? It could be that we're co-parenting well, but more often than not, I have found that the people I know are not that way.

Katie (15:30.935)
Hmm.

Katie (15:38.056)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (15:43.89)
I think that's a good question. Yeah, so I live in Paris, so I take the house therapist to work in conjunction with the therapist in terms of what food they eat, when they eat it, I don't treat children in the end. I usually, when I have people I'm treating who have young children, I always say, you know, set up, nothing, they do the therapist's therapist. So they can use the therapist for one single month.

Katie (15:45.974)
Yeah, so I think it's important for kids to have therapists, to work in conjunction with the therapist, in terms of what do we say, when do we say it. I don't treat children. And I usually, when I have people I'm treating who have young children, I always say, set up an appointment for you with their therapist so that you can tell the therapist what's going on. You can work on things. Kids also need to know what's happening, but not too far in advance.

Sarah Simone (16:13.65)
but not too far in advance, right? Because then, we're gonna give up too much food for anxiety. And I think that, you know, the number one thing is that the children need to know that they will not be troubled, they will not be too sure, and we still, you know, our love for you has not been at all too apparent over the years. And we are still working together to take care of this.

Katie (16:16.034)
then we're going to give them too much space for anxiety. And I think that, you know, the number one thing is that the children need to know that they were not the problem, they were not the issue, and we still, you know, our love for you has not changed at all. You are still our focus, and we are still working together to take care of you.

Katie (16:43.614)
But it can be tough. I mean, thinking about, I think the number one thing that has come up, especially for parents of young children is the idea of I'm not gonna be with them every day. Like I'm used to, you know, there are gonna be times when I'm not gonna put them to bed. I'm not gonna see them first thing in the morning. And I remember talking to a patient one day and saying, you know, my perspective on the phrase,

Sarah Simone (16:46.43)
I was thinking about, I think the number one thing that came up, especially for parents of young children, is the idea of, I'm not gonna be talking to my kids every day. Like I need to, you know, there are gonna be times when I'm not gonna be talking to them. I'm not gonna be talking to them in the morning. I remember talking to a patient one day and saying, you know, my perspective on the grade is to stage marriage for the kids.

Katie (17:15.235)
has changed so much because I think it used to be, I understood it as we stayed married for the kids so that the kids experienced a stable home with two parents in the home. And now I think one thing is first of all, that's not always better for the kids, especially if parents are fighting all the time. But also the way I have heard parents talk about it in session is,

Sarah Simone (17:15.67)
has changed so much because I think, if we could really know that, I would say, I understand that. We played marriage for the kids, for the kids experience, that they will own, well, the two parents need to own. And now, I think one thing that's first of all, that's not always that especially because parents are fighting all the time. But also, the way I have my parents talk about it in connection with, I've played marriage

Katie (17:43.614)
married this long for the kids so that I can be with them all the time. It's for me to be with the kids. I cannot fathom missing something, good or bad.

Sarah Simone (17:46.27)
So that I can be with them all the time. Yeah. It's for me. Right. I cannot fathom the difference between good or bad. I think that is really missing what I can particularly learn and then again, I think that they take more women, struggle with even making the decisions, even though it is generally so clear.

Amy (17:50.48)
Yeah.

Katie (17:59.914)
And I think that is really the thing where I've seen particularly women, and again, it might just be because I treat more women, struggle with even making the decision, even though it is generally so clear. I've said probably not with you guys, but I've said before often when someone comes in and their intake says something about relationship issues, within a few sessions, I realized they're looking for permission to leave.

Sarah Simone (18:28.679)
And so, I would just say that friends are often the center and the center of the world and say something about relationship issues. We can, in a few sessions, idealize or look into the question. Hmm. That's so interesting that you say that. I feel like that's a lot of aspects of adult life. Why do we look for outside permission to do things that we know? Yeah.

Katie (18:30.157)
End.

Amy (18:31.28)
Yeah.

Katie (18:37.635)
Yeah.

Amy (18:40.397)
Hahaha

Katie (18:41.234)
Yeah, why don't we trust ourselves more?

Sarah Simone (18:45.216)
you

Katie (18:46.014)
Absolutely. Fear of the other side, fear of other people's perceptions. Yep. Yeah.

Amy (18:46.997)
fear of the other side.

Amy (18:52.457)
disappointing people.

Amy (18:55.818)
not speaking for myself, I don't really know.

Katie (18:57.077)
Well, I keep thinking like I hate to be making this point as women or it seems like in women, but we women are.

Sarah Simone (19:02.252)
Yeah.

Katie (19:08.314)
taught more about considering other people's opinions and considering relationships, putting relationships before ourselves. So I do think it is more difficult for women in our culture to make what feels like, I don't believe it is, but what feels like the selfish decision.

Katie (19:34.814)
Absolutely. It's something that will drive them apart and keep them together for sure because it's hard to consider how will we make this work. You know, there is a, I think it's called nesting, where it's a co-parenting and custody strategy where there are three homes. Right? One parent's home, the other parent's home, and then the kid's home, and

Amy (19:35.037)
Finances are another reason why people stay together.

Sarah Simone (19:35.19)
I think that's a good point. Absolutely. It's something that will drive them apart. It's something that will help them more. Sure, because in college, they don't care how the students are. They don't care because they actually come back to you where, as a full-time thing, they have these strategies where there are people who are going to be in a classroom and they're going to be in a classroom. Right? One parent's home, the other parent's home, and then the kid's home, and the parent's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's home, and the kid's

Amy (19:41.263)
Yep.

Amy (19:48.697)
and I'll see you next time. Bye.

Amy (19:59.497)
I've heard of this. Yeah.

Katie (20:04.974)
so that the kids never have to go anywhere else. Sounds lovely! I would kind of like it for myself without getting divorced. But who has the money for this?

Sarah Simone (20:07.152)
Yeah. Yes, please. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (20:13.317)
Yes, please.

Amy (20:18.537)
Yeah, I guess if it's like two apartments, the house they own and they already paid the house off, I really don't know, but there has to be a perfect storm for that to make sense.

Katie (20:21.574)
Yeah, I can't fathom it. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, we do want to have safety, stability and security, especially for our children.

Katie (20:37.334)
but women will more often subvert their own needs for other people.

Sarah Simone (20:48.11)
I guess that's something that we need to think about and keep in mind when you're thinking about and evaluating your relationships, that if you're in a tough spot and you're worried about all of the logistics and things is to consider yourself a necessary aspect of all of this. Yes.

Katie (20:54.88)
Mm.

Katie (21:05.674)
Yes, yes, absolutely. And that, you know, I remember, I'm getting just a little bit off topic when we think about maternal mental health. And I remember being at a presentation, I worked in a health system at the time where they were working on a perinatal and postpartum depression unit, where women could bring their children because that was actually one of the barriers. It's one of the biggest barriers to seeking treatment at that time, because they don't want to leave their

Sarah Simone (21:14.152)
about the tunnel that we have.

Sarah Simone (21:20.351)
I was working on a return needle and postpartum distraction movement where women could have a baby with their children because that was actually one of the barriers to communication that was taken about because we don't want to be restricted by the system. So I went to a place and I said, there's a path that I can take to do that.

Katie (21:35.814)
their infants. So I went to a presentation with one of the top psychiatrists in the US in terms of using SSRIs, etc. And she made a very clear statement that the best predictor of the kids' health and mental health is the mothers. So we have to take care of mothers, i.e. ourselves, to take care of our children.

Sarah Simone (21:47.85)
She was very clear that the best treatment for her was the health care provider. So we have to take care of her. Right. We are all to take care of our children. I mean that makes complete sense, but man is that a punch in the gut.

Amy (22:08.097)
How?

Katie (22:09.614)
And I don't want to leave fathers out here. Yeah, I don't want to leave fathers out here either We want fathers to have good mental health Too because I mean, oh my gosh The stories I have heard About what people who are not doing well in terms of mental health Have done to or in front of their children While going through a divorce. It's really really brutal

Sarah Simone (22:17.85)
I feel like the first time I heard that, the story I asked her about was that she was not feeling well, and she was just like, I'm just tired.

Katie (22:39.834)
And it will most likely be something that those children will deal with, either as children or adults or for the rest of their lives. So again, I think one of the most important things is we have to look at taking care of ourselves as a facet of taking care of our children.

Sarah Simone (22:43.676)
you

Sarah Simone (22:46.35)
that most children don't have children, or adults don't have children. So again, maybe there's one thing that we have to look at because we all know that we have the perspective So that kind of leads me to the next question that I had, which was a very loaded one, so I apologize. But when it comes to, I know that there are a lot of times

Sarah Simone (23:16.41)
to divorce or a separation of a marriage, there's a lot of anger wrapped up in that. And along with therapy, because I believe so strongly that everyone, no matter what situation you're going through, should be going to therapy. So if you're going through a divorce, you should be going to therapy as well, along with the rest of us. But how, in addition to that, what are some ways of processing that anger and not allowing

Katie (23:22.755)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (23:30.756)
Yeah.

Katie (23:45.814)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Simone (23:46.73)
all of those other aspects of your life when you're carrying that around with you all the time.

Katie (23:51.914)
So I think anger is one of the messier emotions, stickier. And oftentimes we are just wrapped up in anger, forgetting or maybe not even knowing what we are angry about.

Katie (24:13.134)
So I think it's very, very important.

Katie (24:17.214)
to take time and space. Because I think we have it in our heads that somehow to process anger, to figure this all out, I'm gonna need five hours. You might actually need 30 seconds or five minutes to just pause and ground and say, hold on, where is this coming from?

Amy (24:42.001)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (24:42.154)
What am I so upset about? And then I think if we give it that moment, that 10 beats, whatever it is, one, the anger dissipates a little bit. But two, we are less likely to displace it onto our friends, other family members, kids, et cetera. The other thing to remember is we often in psychology make a big deal about anger being a secondary emotion

Sarah Simone (24:43.85)
And then I think if we give it that moment, that tendency, whatever it is, one, the anger that's associated with it, two, we are less likely to develop it. You know, onto offense, other family members, and so forth and so forth. The other thing to remember is, you know, we often in psychology make a big deal about anger being a secondary condition.

Katie (25:12.034)
often being something like hurt, sadness, loss. But for many people, anger feels more powerful. Usually when there is anger, we want to do something with it. Right? And that feels better than laying in my bed crying.

Sarah Simone (25:13.95)
something that hurts as it is. But for many people, anger feels more powerful. Really, when there is anger, we want to do something. And that feels better than laying in my bedside. But if you look around yourself, you feel the pain of the sadness that hurts so much. The anger again, it's quite common. Because that's what it's really doing to us.

Katie (25:31.334)
But if you allow yourself to feel the pain of the sadness, the hurt, the loss, the anger again, might lessen because that's what it's truly related to. That said, there are some righteous anger in the world. I mean, I've been feeling it lately with events in our country. That is for sure. And we don't wanna lose that. Yeah, actually that's a great point too, Sarah, is that I think many of us, or maybe I'm projecting because I am certainly,

Sarah Simone (25:46.071)
Yeah, sure, yes. And it's not all bad. Mm-hmm.

Amy (25:50.157)
Yeah. Yeah.

Katie (26:01.754)
our own and other people. So we also need to say, what if I schedule some time to sit with my anger? Let it tell me why it's here.

Amy (26:04.46)
Yeah.

Katie (26:13.695)
what this experience is really, really related to.

Sarah Simone (26:14.65)
Thank you. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed it.

Amy (26:14.802)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (26:18.734)
we get a lot of really good information that we have probably been, I don't know if I wanna say actively repressing, but maybe just not even noticing about our own experience.

Sarah Simone (26:21.13)
that we can follow the agenda, not gonna say actively discuss it, but maybe just find a way to think about it. Right. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience. About our own experience.

Amy (26:32.658)
And sometimes the experience is just re-triggering, re-traumatizing other anger that you've pushed down for the same thing. Whether it be like someone, let's say it was infidelity, so then someone has lied to you in your past as well, and then this person who you trusted so much and was your partner also lied to you, and then your best friend did, I don't even know, all of these things. And so it's just a complete and utter spiral.

Katie (26:42.855)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (26:49.735)
Yeah.

Katie (26:58.034)
Yeah, we often say that grief is a well. And so when you're grieving, it's not just that person, that thing. It's all of the people, all of the things. I think anger is almost exactly the same way. That it's, you know, it might be all the times I've been wronged. There's another point that feels kind of parallel to this that I think is really important when we're thinking about life after divorce, especially when we're considering a new romantic relationship.

Sarah Simone (27:10.85)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (27:14.539)
Yeah.

Katie (27:28.994)
that we have to kind of put that last relationship in its place, which is the past. We can take what we learned about ourselves from it. Absolutely we should. But we don't want to respond to the person in front of us now as if they are the person who was in front of us in that last relationship or two

Sarah Simone (27:40.15)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie (27:58.856)
when you have to still be involved with that first partner because of co-parenting.

Katie (28:07.514)
Thanks for watching!

Amy (28:08.397)
That's incredibly hard.

Katie (28:09.954)
So I think maybe having some questions at hand, who am I responding to? What am I responding to? What is happening right now? How do I take care of myself right now?

Sarah Simone (28:10.15)
So I think maybe you have a question for me. Who am I to talk to today? What am I to talk to today? What is happening right now?

Amy (28:12.897)
now.

Katie (28:24.914)
You know, what is the appropriate response in this moment? Or even, does this feeling feel really, really familiar?

Sarah Simone (28:35.16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (28:37.297)
Hehehe

Amy (28:40.717)
I think it's interesting when people, I only think this way because I'm confused by it, get remarried because I can't, I'm so cynical, right? I'm incredibly cynical of the institution of marriage, I think, you know, and I never wanna rain on anybody else's parade at all, so I keep my mouth shut, but I'm always like, really? Huh, okay.

Sarah Simone (28:49.69)
I'm going to go ahead and start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you.

Katie (28:50.634)
Yeah. What?

Katie (28:55.419)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (29:04.194)
Yeah, being completely personally honest, I had zero desire to get married again. Um, I really I mean, my husband and I lived together for five years before current husband, before getting engaged. And I did not see the point in getting married again. I said, you know, it didn't work. Basically, why are we going to change something that seems okay? And I will tell you,

Amy (29:14.159)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (29:18.85)
which and I could not do the point of being married again. Right. I said, no, this is love. Basically, why are we changing something? It seems okay. And I was wondering about our first year of living together, this was pretty good. They were pretty awkward, because I don't think I was actually ready to give up anything that felt like just not making it. Yeah, that's a good point, yeah.

Amy (29:25.458)
Right, exactly.

Katie (29:34.374)
was pretty brutal. It was pretty awful because I don't think I was actually ready to give up anything that felt like just mine again and probably didn't spend enough time on my own but I was like in my 30s when I got divorced and thought oh I want to have a kid. Little did I know that I'd have one in my 40s so

Sarah Simone (29:48.87)
I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that.

Amy (29:49.557)
Yes, I get that.

Katie (30:04.434)
I did not, I didn't want to get married again, but my husband is more traditional than I am. My take on it was, well, if I end up pregnant, we'll get married because I, not because I think you need to be married to have children, but because I knew that our families would appreciate that, and it might be, I don't know, more accepted for the child, et cetera. He disagreed, so I did it.

Sarah Simone (30:18.85)
So because I'm a student of the university, I have to create that and the choice to have a more productive child is a better option. So I do this for free. So I'm good. I'm not a student of the university. I'm a student of the HICS office. I don't have to do that.

Katie (30:35.035)
I, you know, it's fine. I don't, I.

Katie (30:41.235)
Yeah.

Amy (30:42.297)
And that's how I would feel about it. Like, it's fine. I don't know. All right, cool. If we must. Hahaha.

Katie (30:47.839)
Yeah, I mean, it's incredibly hopeful to me.

Sarah Simone (30:49.511)
I'm taking this part out so if your partners hear it that it's not like what the fuck

Katie (30:58.154)
But I think it's important and I think that honestly like the institution of marriage It just in and of itself is more important to some people Than to others and I will say and this is not just me. This is what people have reported in therapy It is not just a piece of paper Something feels different too many people maybe not to everybody about actually being married and it might just be that it is

Sarah Simone (31:17.55)
something feels different. Too many people believe in that to everybody. A foul act of the government. And it might be true that it is. It's true that there's distribution of assets as far as we do our government. I don't think so. And it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, the easy leave, like the easy exit is what you mean? Yeah. And then the

Katie (31:27.975)
distribution of assets afterwards if you end up divorced? I don't know but...

Amy (31:35.197)
I think it really takes the way out, out. Even though divorce happens.

Katie (31:37.334)
Yeah, it makes it harder.

Amy (31:44.197)
Yeah, and that's possibly it. I don't know. I mean, or there's just a repulsion towards it because of your past experiences. Or I'm not sure. I don't know why, but it...

Katie (31:56.874)
I think and also just the idea of you've gotten married in religious traditions where a woman is given away and You feel like you've just reclaimed your life

Sarah Simone (31:58.01)
So, you know, the, um, not wearing a religious tradition for a woman that's given away, and you feel like you've gotten away in your life. Mm-hmm. But, because it was given away in your life. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, there was none about that in your life. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's a great question, I'll be right back. We did not, um...

Amy (32:04.818)
Yes. Yes.

Katie (32:10.914)
I think we're so ready to give it away again. So by the way, there was none of that language in my second wedding. I felt better about that. We did not, but we were very, I was, am I kidding? I did all the talking, I think. I was like, listen, I'm okay with this, I'm not okay with that. Like there will be absolutely no Old Testament. Like this is not happening. I want this all to be about celebrating love and like not.

Amy (32:23.525)
Did you write your own vowels?

Sarah Simone (32:39.407)
Yeah.

Katie (32:41.074)
Anybody giving anybody away that said my dad did walk me down the aisle again but He knows as much as I do that. He's not giving me anybody. It was just you know, I I think that's a fine tradition and That was how we did it, but I just and I think again I feel like I'm like harping on women But women used to need the institution of marriage in ways that we don't and I think

Amy (32:42.177)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (32:53.358)
Hahaha

Sarah Simone (32:57.263)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (33:08.25)
Right. Right. Right. Up until the 70s. Like that's insane. Yes, you had to be married and have a husband's signature to get a credit card. Or Yeah. No.

Amy (33:09.54)
Yes.

Katie (33:14.578)
Yes! Yes! Yes!

Amy (33:14.597)
Credit cards?

Amy (33:19.157)
When I was born that same year, they still need it.

Katie (33:21.914)
Yeah.

Katie (33:24.256)
Go.

Amy (33:25.357)
or your dad at like whatever age. What?

Katie (33:27.894)
Yeah, so I think things have just changed in a lot of different ways. And that said, I also don't love this idea that I hear, I think, a lot of older people throwing around that kids these days, they just go get divorced. You know, it's just, ah, it doesn't work out. You get divorced. You always know you can do that. And to me, again, talk about something that is demeaning, disrespectful. There might be people like that. There might be people in their 80s like that.

Sarah Simone (33:38.15)
Thank you for watching. Have a good Tuesday.

Katie (33:57.814)
thinking, well, I can just go get divorced if this doesn't work. I didn't want to do it. I fought it. I knew it was—no!

Sarah Simone (34:03.581)
I don't think anybody goes into a marriage thinking that, well, I wouldn't say anybody, but I would say the majority of people don't go into a marriage saying, well, if it doesn't work out, I can just walk away, you know, get divorced.

Katie (34:09.697)
Right.

Katie (34:14.44)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (34:16.63)
hoping that this lasts and it's a loving, caring situation.

Katie (34:18.458)
Yeah.

Katie (34:20.774)
Yeah, unfortunately I think a lot of us do maybe think we have expectations for more change than is likely. But if it had not happened prior to the actual wedding, not sure what we think is gonna make it happen. Also, another thing I do not understand now that I have a toddler is having a baby to save a marriage, please don't do that. I don't know how that works, but it's just an even bigger stressor on a relationship

Amy (34:46.119)
Yeah, no.

Amy (34:50.021)
now.

Katie (34:50.714)
I adore my child and my marriage and my life, but not easy.

Sarah Simone (34:54.555)
Yeah. I have another kind of like loaded question. So I know that I know that when you have something big like this happen in your life, it's obviously traumatizing and can create all kinds of problems

Katie (35:12.335)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Simone (35:17.009)
I think a lot of times we have a hard time letting go of pain like that or letting go of anger and not wanting to move forward because we feel like our feelings are so justified, which they are always. But in that sense, and you might be, like you said, reclaiming yourself and coming to a point where you're realizing who you are without this person. And so you want to hold on to these feelings. But in order to move forward, we need to release them.

Katie (35:21.78)
Yeah.

Katie (35:45.48)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (35:46.849)
What kind of advice do you have for people that are wanting to kind of hold those things close to the chest?

Katie (35:52.614)
So I think this is another time for more questioning, for self-inquiry. What are these feelings actually doing? Right? If I am holding on to even justified anger, do I feel better?

Katie (36:13.294)
And I will say for some people, they can use it in an empowering way. But how do I just find the power in it? The power isn't about my anger towards this person. The power is in recognizing that I can take steps for myself.

Sarah Simone (36:16.55)
I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me.

Katie (36:33.197)
And I think.

Sarah Simone (36:34.25)
I think we also need to talk about the actual...

Katie (36:37.214)
We also just have to really evaluate, am I trying to give myself a better life or am I trying to hurt someone else?

Sarah Simone (36:57.43)
Yeah. Or am I trying to show up? And I think that's how I'm trying to show up. I'm trying to show up. I'm trying to show up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm trying to show up. I'm trying to show up. I'm trying to show up. I'm trying to show up. I'm trying to show up. But considering how much I do, I would not be that much of a lot of people there. I would have a lot of people there.

Katie (36:57.574)
Or am I trying to show everybody how justified?

Katie (37:04.258)
you.

Katie (37:06.794)
Yeah, well yeah, I mean, and now.

Amy (37:07.097)
Somebody would be like, both. Both. Okay? I'm not sure.

Katie (37:10.954)
why this was important to me when I got divorced. It was very important to me that I did not discuss a lot of the details with other people. I knew that I had my side of the story and that he likely had a different one and that if he wanted to say it, that would be fine. Whatever, I actually don't know what he has told people about me

Sarah Simone (37:29.473)
We'll see you guys later. Bye.

Sarah Simone (37:32.95)
that he wanted to say about the define whatever. I mean, I have to just know that he's not going to say it without asking you. But what happened in the last couple of years, and I think that there's a really good chance that I'll tell you how we're going to do it.

Katie (37:41.274)
But that what happened between us happened between us and I think that that was a really good thing that I somehow knew how to do I Mean I have a couple really good friends who know most of it. My mom knows most of it but It would not have so the question is who does it serve right? To hold on to these feelings

Sarah Simone (37:56.35)
But, this really does not have to touch the physical level, right? It's just all eyes.

Amy (38:07.381)
Yeah.

Katie (38:09.894)
It never serves you to hold on to anger.

Sarah Simone (38:11.45)
to fold on to the other side. So, to fold on to the other side. So, to fold on to the other side. So, to fold on to the other side. So, to fold on to the other side. So, to fold on to the other side. So, to fold on to the other side.

Katie (38:16.414)
to.

Katie (38:19.314)
I don't know, to punish someone else. If they were gonna learn by punishing, you probably already tried a few times in the marriage, right? What's gonna change now?

Sarah Simone (38:20.05)
to punish them in the open. If they were going to learn how to punish them, they probably would have been archived from the time since they were in the church, right? You watch TV and you learn. Yeah. I'm going to show you a picture of a church that I was in. I was in the church when I was in college. I was in the church when I was in college. I was in the church when I was in college. I was in the church when I was in college. I was in the church when I was in college. I was in the church when I was in college.

Amy (38:34.797)
It's true, it's true. I did wanna talk quickly about the healing that happens and needs to happen afterwards. If specifically it's an abusive relationship, emotionally, physically, or if the person is narcissistic or if they're just unwell, the toll that takes on someone and what they can do, I mean, a million things probably, but how do they start?

Katie (38:41.236)
Yeah.

Katie (38:47.014)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Simone (38:50.51)
I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. Well, I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start. I think that's a great way to start.

Katie (38:59.914)
Yeah, well, I think, I mean, we're all tired of me saying this and also everybody is full right now, but that's where therapy comes in because when we have been traumatized, what we often take away are negative self-cognitions. I deserved this. I did something to provoke this. I need to make changes for my life so that nobody does that to me again.

Sarah Simone (39:20.05)
I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. My wife is a really good mother. And the bottom line is she has done heavy things that have made some people uncomfortable. She's had bad things that can still happen. So I really think that we just need to look at this one belief about self-care. And it's right down the aisle, and it's about relationship.

Katie (39:29.914)
some people are still going to hurt you. Bad things can still happen. So I really think something to look at is one's beliefs about oneself. And it might not be obvious that they came from that relationship. And the other thing is they may not have. I think oftentimes people are primed to negatively internalize the abusive relationships because of other experiences

Sarah Simone (39:51.11)
I mean, often times people are inclined to negatively internalize the abuse of religious hug others when they have violence. So what happens a lot of times is that their views can come in and it's so cliche. We talked about the relationship, but their views can be on staff and even more so on

Katie (39:59.914)
prior to them. So what happens a lot of times in therapy is they come in, and it's so cliche. We talk about the relationship, but fairly quickly, we are back in family of origin issues that were activated within and by this relationship, and that kind of confirmed things that the patient has always kind of thought

Amy (40:28.391)
Mm.

Katie (40:30.534)
or seems like always they were learned in the family of origin and so it takes someone from the outside to say no no this is not you this is emotional manipulation

Amy (40:46.18)
Yeah.

Katie (40:47.075)
This is abuse.

Katie (40:50.754)
Oftentimes to a way to kind of access the zooming out we talk about is, what would I tell my friend if I was watching this and this was my friend in this situation or my sister, my most beloved individual?

Katie (41:06.934)
What would I say to them? How would I experience this? And then have that same compassion for yourself. I think self-compassion is one of the most important pieces of moving forward, because divorce is a huge life stressor, typically. And if we think about stressors in life, it's like relationships, homes, jobs, separation from people.

Katie (41:37.194)
all of these. You know, we would never advise someone, start a new relationship, buy a new house, start a new job, and don't be with your kid.

Sarah Simone (41:39.05)
Yeah. At the same time, all at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

Katie (41:48.114)
Sounds like a recipe for disaster, but sometimes we have to do these things pretty much all at once in order to move forward. So please be kind and patient with yourself while this is happening. No one's gonna do this perfectly because there's no such thing.

Amy (41:49.797)
Ha ha ha

Amy (41:53.118)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (42:10.834)
Can we get the church choir to sing that? And clap along with it, please.

Katie (42:13.461)
laughs

Amy (42:15.939)
Hahaha!

Katie (42:17.654)
You know, I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect divorce, as you know, a perfect custody situation. I don't know that there's a perfect way to move through things, but I don't think compassion is ever lost, is ever wrong.

Sarah Simone (42:29.794)
So the first thing we do is we provide just a few actions so that our last two steps are not wrong. Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Amy (42:37.759)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (42:39.35)
It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard. It is. It's hard.

Katie (42:40.48)
Nah.

Amy (42:41.297)
A lot of people don't wanna hear that, but that, I get it, it makes sense. It does. It's really hard, right? Just anger that wrath that you have, like for someone who hurt you and hurt your family, if they were the one at fault, but usually, you know, everybody says it takes two. I mean, every situation is completely different. There isn't, it's impossible to say, even if it was like, oh, it was infidelity, infidelity. No, no, no. Like there was still something else that was completely different

Katie (42:43.836)
It's hard!

Sarah Simone (43:10.21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy (43:11.297)
two situations. So all situations are very, very different and personal. So I think a lot of it is just a matter of, you know, like you said, self-reflection and really trying to get to the root of that rage.

Katie (43:24.034)
Yeah, rage or even like just, okay, what was going on for me? Even in the sadness, in the good moments. How did I come to these decisions? What can I learn about myself through all of this? I think is really, really important.

Sarah Simone (43:39.35)
What can I learn about myself? Do I have to be a little bit more... Yes, definitely. So if you had, as you know, you've experienced this yourself, if you had one big piece of advice that you could give to people going through this, and if you could reflect back on your experience with it, I guess either what would you say or to yourself, if you could go back and talk to yourself

Katie (44:00.138)
Oh gosh.

Sarah Simone (44:09.53)
this what would you say?

Katie (44:10.714)
Okay, so I don't think there's one thing. There's about seven million, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible. First of all, you need no one's permission. Don't worry about the wedding, how much it costs. Don't worry about expectations. You need no one's permission to attempt to give yourself a happier life.

Katie (44:32.254)
Then, if you can afford an attorney, get an attorney, and then stay the fuck out of it as much as possible. Let them do their job. Let them fight for you. I never walked into a courtroom. I never had to be deposed, nothing. I just dealt with my attorney and they handled it. Took longer than I thought, that's okay. A piece of advice that I got from my dad was don't negotiate with yourself.

Amy (44:41.817)
Cool.

Sarah Simone (45:01.544)
I love that.

Katie (45:02.294)
And I thought that was great because his point was he knew me and that we would very likely get to a point where I would say, no, I'll take this just fine, just to get it done. And so again, letting the expert do their job was very, very helpful. And then I think you don't have to tell anybody anything. If you want to tell people, tell people, but also acknowledge when they're done listening,

Amy (45:04.919)
Interesting.

Sarah Simone (45:11.331)
very likely to get to a point where I would be able to offer them some advice, particularly about the job that they're doing. And so again, letting them do the extra work of doing their job is very, very helpful. And then again, you don't have to tell anybody anything. If you want to help yourself, help yourself, but obviously when we're done, it's just me and you. I'm not going to do it myself. I'm not going to do it myself. I'm not going to do it myself.

Amy (45:17.122)
Yeah.

Katie (45:32.214)
yourself. Get a therapist and don't set a timetable for when you think you should be over this.

Katie (45:43.734)
You know, when you think you should be ready to move on. And also, I really do think time without a partner is important so that you can get to reengage with yourself.

Amy (45:45.579)
Yeah.

Sarah Simone (45:47.056)
And also, I feel you do spend time without a partner, because it's important. So that you can get to re-engage with yourself.

Katie (46:02.814)
See how that relationship impacted you, what you want to take, what you want to leave, and how you want to move forward.

Sarah Simone (46:04.35)
and that's the time to do what we want to do, what we want to do, and that's how we want to do it.

Sarah Simone (46:13.291)
Beautiful advice, love it. Well it's on the record now.

Katie (46:13.574)
Thanks, write it down because I don't remember what I said.

Amy (46:13.957)
That's fantastic. That's so important. We'll write it down and copyright it for you, author Dr. Katie Stewart.

Katie (46:26.954)
Thank you.

Amy (46:27.857)
It was fantastic. Thank you.

Sarah Simone (46:28.75)
We know you have to get back into session, so we're going to let you go. Yes, all right. So we're going to let's say our goodbyes real quick and then we'll. We will. Yep, yep, yep. Real quick.

Katie (46:31.674)
we'll watch. Yes, thank you. I'm at 99%. So we're, we'll be close.

Katie (46:40.174)
Yeah, and let me know when you're on, when you're doing your TV thing in May and everything. I'm so excited for you guys. Awesome. Fantastic.

Amy (46:41.981)
Yeah.

Amy (46:50.057)
We will for sure. Okay, are we gonna say goodbye here? All right, so thank you Dr. Katie for joining us again and helping us to work through some, you know, what to do after divorce. And we just really appreciate you for coming on.

Katie (47:00.954)
Well, thanks. I noticed that I always want to say my pleasure, and that seems a little weird, because I'm always talking about things that people are struggling with, but it is a pleasure to be able to offer something that might help.

Sarah Simone (47:01.211)
Yes, thank you so much. Yes, we appreciate you. Our listeners appreciate you. Thank you again. All right. I'm going to, I'm just going to hit stop.

Amy (47:14.578)
Absolutely.